Hear How This Amazing Couple Started a Profitable Online Business While Raising 3 Kids Under 6 Years Old, plus a brand new puppy.
Starting an online business and making money from it is already hard enough.
But imagine doing that while working full-time jobs, taking care of a new puppy and raising 3 kids under 6 years old.
That’s what Kieron and Norm have done and in today’s interview, you’ll hear exactly how they did it, including:
- How they make the time
- How they work together as a couple
- How long it took them to become profitable
- How much they charged at the beginning
- When they started outsourcing
- The 4 roles they’ve hired to scale their business and buy back their time.
And much much more.
If you want to start an online business without quitting your job, but you have no spare time, then click below to hear how Norm & Kieron did it so you can too.
Matt: If you’ve been considering an alternative side income or transitioning out of your career, there may be a few obstacles holding you back. And it’s not just about knowledge; the main issue we see today is time.
So, how do you go about this? How do you earn income online? How do you learn the ropes? And how do you make the leap from earning in your full-time job to transitioning to an online income?
Today’s special guests are right in the middle of their journey. They have been retraining in digital skills with eBusiness Institute for nearly 12 months. So, we’ll have a look at their story and the three big challenges they’ve been facing.
Norm & Kieron face 3 big challenges when starting their online business
Matt: It’s great to see you, Norm and Kieron, because your three major challenges are relatable for many of our readers:
- You’re working full-time.
- You’re based in a rural area of Australia.
- And you’re raising a young family.
Norm & Kieron are high school teachers raising 3 kids under 6 years old
Matt: Kieron, can you tell us more about your family situation? There are lots of mums reading this who will want to read your story.
Kieron: We have three kids, all under six, and we’ve just added a puppy to the mix to ensure we have no spare time! 🙂
Matt: This sounds just like Pete and Renee, who built a 7-figure digital agency while raising three young children. So, with you two raising three kids under six, I’m sensing a common theme running through our Champions program.
You’ve started on our program both working full time and raising three young children. What do you guys do for a living?
Norm: We’re both high school teachers.
Matt: A high school teacher has a full-on role. So, you’re working long hours while also raising three kids. On top of all that, they’ve added a puppy to the mix. As they say, “If you want something done, give it to a busy person.”
Kieron: That’s us. Absolutely.
Matt: Your life sounds pretty full-on, yet you guys are achieving some amazing results, so a big congratulations.
How they started their online journey with a young family
Matt: The other reason we’re speaking today is to celebrate some of the results you’ve been achieving. What are you doing now with the skills you’ve learned here at eBusiness Institute?
Norm was looking for a side income to support his growing family
Kieron: Norm started the journey about two years ago. He was looking for a side income when he came across Captain FI and the concept of passive income. While looking, he stumbled across your WebDev course and insisted that I do it, especially because I was heading into maternity leave.
And I’m sitting there with our third baby, thinking, “I just want to put the other two kids in daycare and sit and watch Netflix with the newborn baby! I don’t need a course, but thanks anyway.”
But once Norm went through the course, he realised that this was just having that system in place, using the structure and support from the course.
After getting through the newborn phase and managing to watch plenty of Netflix, we reached a point where our youngest was around six months old, and I still had a few months of maternity leave left. That’s when I realised that I could also try my hand at something new, and so we joined Champions.
…and they started making money in their Digital Agency within the first 12 months!
Kieron: Within our first year of Champions, we’re now starting to get paid clients. So, it’s been a very big and exciting 12 months.
Matt: Well done, guys! Here you are – you have your third little one, and you decide, “Alright, we’re going to go all in on this.”
Why Norm was inspired by the FIRE Movement to earn money online outside of their teaching career
Matt: Norm, have you always been interested in the FIRE movement? Is that where you first heard about eBusiness Institute?
Norm: Yes. A few years ago, I read Tim Ferriss’ The 4-Hour Work Week, which opened my mind.
Coming from a working-class family, the idea of creating long-term wealth was never really discussed at home. After that, I read Rich Dad Poor Dad, got into the FIRE movement, and started listening to the Captain FI podcast. I heard him interview you on one of his podcasts, and that’s when it all began for me.
It wasn’t long after that I signed up for the WebDev course, but I didn’t really get into it for about 12 months. I started it but lost interest.
Then, about two years ago, I decided this was something that really interested me. I’ve always had something on the side, in addition to my job, just to keep my brain active. Web development has always been something I have been intrigued by, so I delved into it, and I’m still learning.
Matt: It’s cool. As you both know, and for everyone reading this, Norm and Kieron just mentioned that they first heard about us on the Captain FI Podcast. Captain FI is one of our star students here at eBusiness, and he’s gone on to do great things with what we taught, earning more than six figures from his websites.
And if you’re wondering what the FIRE movement is, it stands for Financial Independence Retire Early.
1./ So they can spend more quality time with family
Matt: So, are you guys ready to retire, or are you just starting on your journey?
Norm: We’re not quite on the retirement level yet.
Kieron: But with the changing lifestyle, we’re looking forward to having more time available for us to spend with our family. That’s something that we keep coming back to – having that balance and not just doing something with our time but doing something that is ours and frees up the time to spend together.
Having a shared interest has been enjoyable as well. Working on it together and having conversations about different things instead of just coming home and complaining about work has been nice for us. It’s been great to focus on what we’re building together.
Norm: Yes, it’s been really nice. It’s definitely not just talking about kids at work; it’s something else to work through together.
Kieron: Discussing Matt and Liz during our date nights instead 🙂
Matt: Hopefully in good ways, Kieron!
Kieron: Absolutely.
2./ To stop swapping time for money
Kieron: We heard your story, Matt, about your journey to financial independence, and we’ve discussed it a lot. We understand where you’re coming from, being part of the working class. It involves a complete shift in mindset.
Personally, I was raised with the same work ethic. My dad, who is nearly 70, still works long hours truck driving. The concept of working tirelessly without making substantial progress has been ingrained in us.
While having a strong work ethic has its benefits, we also want to focus on improving our financial literacy and being smart for ourselves and our kids.
Norm: Over the last 12 months in Champions, we’ve learned so much from Matt and Liz Raad about how to apply those things and how it works in the real world.
Matt: Well, hats off to you both because I know the journey you’re on with building alternative assets. Like you said, Kieron, the hard work ethic is helping you guys because you’re currently under a lot of pressure with three kids under six and your new one, as well as with the teaching roles that you’re in.
They’re shifting their mindsets to alternative ways of earning income faster and without sacrificing quality time with family…
Matt: I think it’s a really good point when you’ve grown up in the working class. Like you said, your dad’s still working, and you just swap time for money—you’re used to it. You think that’s the way it works, but you can now see that even in the limited time that you two have, you’re making progress.
As you were talking, Kieron, I thought, “Wow, you guys are absolute legends”. Even with your limited time, you’re building an asset. Actually, you could already sell your agency, and you’ve only been at it for 12 months. That’s pretty mind-blowing, and it’s great to see you starting to recognise those leverage points.
Norm & Kieron’s journey to starting their Digital Agency
Matt: Even though you’re interested in alternative income streams like buying and selling websites, you’ve chosen to focus on the digital agency strategy first. What attracted you to that, especially given the little time you had and the effort it requires?
Norm: I would say lots of listening to Matt!
Matt: Good answer, Norm.
Norm: I wasn’t initially considering this strategy because I was focused on buying assets and having a somewhat passive approach.
However, you told us two important reasons for building an agency:
- There’s a lot of value in it.
- And it’s a great way to learn the craft before fully diving in.
I realised that building a digital agency is a perfect way to develop my digital skills.
It’s been a great opportunity to talk to local people, understand their needs and desires, and help them by building or upgrading their websites. Seeing their excitement and satisfaction with our work is really rewarding and enjoyable.
Kieron: Building our web design agency in Orange was a confidence builder for us. I learned the new skills, applied them, and saw that they worked.
Their first client website build boosted their confidence to do even more!
Kieron: As we were learning our new skills, we did a couple of free builds for clients.
We had someone ask us to rebuild a site for them. They were a bathroom renovation company in Canberra. So, we agreed to work with them, even though we were still considering ourselves as just learning.
Previously, this business never needed to look for clients in the Canberra building industry. There was plenty of money. However, post-COVID, as the suppliers’ costs increased, they had no clients booked, which they had never experienced before.
So, we revamped their website and helped them go from having no leads to ranking fourth, and now they’re fully booked. We did such a good job that we missed the potential SEO because they got too many leads, averaging four to six leads a month.
I felt confident in our skills and knowledge, which ultimately played a big part in deciding to start our own agency. This confidence was the determining factor that pushed us to go for it and get started.
Matt: Well done, Kieron, that was a huge confidence booster for you. That one site build was the catalyst for your success.
Norm: Yes.
Matt: Now, to reiterate, Kieron and Norm decided to listen to Matt and learn while they earn. They began building sites for friends, family, and other businesses in their rural hometown of Orange, New South Wales.
Orange is a rural town with a population of about 40,000, known for its farming community. But Kieron and Norm experienced success with a client in Canberra, which is quite a distance from Orange. Was this opportunity solely through connections with friends and family?
Norm: Yes, this was from family who were about four hours away.
Matt: So, you built a website for them. And from having no leads at all, the business suddenly started getting four to six leads every month. You mentioned that they are now fully booked out. So, that was the point when you realised that you can do this.
Norm boosted his digital skills while learning to build websites for local businesses
Matt: Did you start charging for your services after that? Was that the fourth or fifth website you had built at that point?
Norm: Yes, so this was the first rebuild we’d ever done.
Matt: And what was that like for you, Norm? How many hours did you spend on it? I want people to understand the effort you put into this.
Norm: I spent a lot of time working on WP Bakery, which I didn’t even know about at first. It has nothing to do with flour or bread! 🙂
When I first saw it, I felt a bit overwhelmed, “What have I gotten myself into?” I ended up spending a lot of time on YouTube, figuring things out on my own.
I probably spent a couple of hours most nights, including during the holidays. I think I spent around 20 hours on it and learned a lot. It was a great learning experience and definitely laid a good foundation for understanding how to use Elementor, building websites as you teach, and refining those digital skills.
…you need to learn the skills first before you outsource to others…
Matt: Look at the payoff through confidence. This is the goal here. If you’re a beginner, your first big step should be to gain online confidence, just like what Norm and Kieron have done. There are technical tasks involved, but you can outsource them later on.
Sure, it requires some upfront work to learn this stuff, but as Norm was saying, he’s now got the confidence. Whenever I speak to you both, I can see the confidence in you guys. It’s pretty amazing. And think about it: you’ve got a lifelong skill now.
You can take that skill with you wherever you go and if you ever want to change. I know you’re not quitting your job yet or anything like that, but if you want to transition to this fully, you can do that now.
The moment they realised they should be charging for website builds
….and how they busted through Impostor Syndrome!
Matt: What’s happened since then? Who made the decision to start charging for the websites at that point?
Kieron: Once we’d completed that client website build, we realised something. The business was being charged almost $200 per month for hosting, despite the website not being updated since 2017.
Also, we noticed that a lot of businesses were unaware of what it takes for website building, hosting, and maintenance. So, we could tell people were poised for being ripped off.
A big lesson Matt and Liz Raad taught us is that it all comes back to solving problems and helping people. That definitely helped those thoughts around impostor syndrome. And so, at that point, the idea of starting a professional digital agency servicing rural NSW crossed our minds.
We’ve only been on this journey for a bit over 12 months, and we know it was legitimate for us to do it. Also, Norm is very good at breaking down SEO and helping people understand its value for their business.
And so, the more Norm talked with people, the more I could see people feeling really grateful that, “Oh, actually, I could give this to you, and I know it’s okay. I know that it’s going to be in safe hands.”
That became the deciding factor in us knowing that we were ready to start charging.
They take the time to understand business needs and goals
…how taking the time to talk to businesses is helping Kieron and Norm to provide marketing solutions that actually work for businesses
Kieron: I believe the idea of providing something to help people is important. We identified a gap in the market and decided to offer our services without charging huge prices like big marketing or digital agencies. We noticed that people often paid high prices without getting the results they wanted.
The key difference is that we engage in deep conversations with people to understand their business goals.
This is exactly what you and Liz were discussing – talking to them, understanding their needs, and then providing assistance to help them achieve those goals. So, we decided to start our own business based on that approach.
I’ve started a digital marketing initiative with the idea that while everyone else is doing one thing, we are doing something different. I’m meeting new people, learning about their businesses and goals, and helping them understand that they can generate leads effectively without having to pay for ads or expensive radio advertising, which is quite common here in Orange.
Why conversations are so important for local Digital Agencies
…and how this can help you beat the bigger agencies!
Matt: Lke you two, Liz and I grew up in a rural area too. What I want our readers to understand is that no matter where you are, you can help people get online once you’ve got the skills.
This strategy works particularly well in rural areas. I’ve always said this to Champions who are building digital agencies in rural areas because it all comes down to conversations.
Kieron, what you’re saying is that you and your team can go out and talk to local people. You’ve noticed two really important things:
- In today’s world, people are interested in buying locally, especially in the age of AI.
- You’ve also observed that many big digital agencies lack a personal touch.
So, when you’re in a rural town, people appreciate having you around. You can drive down, meet them for a cup of coffee, and discuss their businesses. You understand their town’s businesses and probably know half of their client base. This makes a huge difference compared to speaking with someone from a big city like Sydney.
It helps Norm to understand the business and deliver exceptional results
Matt: Have you found that people are open to conversations with you, even though you’re new to this?
Norm: Yes, definitely.
As an example, I just finished one for Kieron’s friend. After talking with her about her tutoring business, I was able to discuss her goals. It brought up a lot of questions for her about what she’s doing and how she’s doing it.
Having that conversation meant I could understand her business better, and I was able to pitch different ways we could work with her business and how she could look to expand it.
Just by going through the process that Matt & Liz Raad teach, I was able to ask questions and really get down into the nuts and bolts of it.
Kieron: You also understood her customer avatar, which has been our point of difference, too.
How a simple conversation with a local business in a rural area could lead to big opportunities
Kieron: We have a recent potential client who we’re hoping to close on soon. They are located in a regional place and were searching for an SEO company.
They are actually located a long way from us, but their nearest big centre is Sydney, which I suppose is ours too. So, when they were looking, they typed in Sydney and said that every result they found just wreaked of big city. He said they all appeared impersonal and faceless.
So, he ended up typing in “SEO New South Wales”, and our agency website came up in the top 10 results in Google. That’s how he found us, and he gave us a call.
When he called, I was outside walking the puppy. The kids were coughing, and it was all chaos. He said he was also travelling and has three little kids as well. We got chatting about illnesses, just as two parents do!
And through the conversation, I asked, “How did you find us?” He said, “I know you’re in Orange, which is a long way from us. But I felt so much more confident that I’m not going to be dealing with this big company.”
I said, “Absolutely! That’s what we’re trying to achieve and provide for local businesses.”
Matt: That’s great. And we should mention he’s a vet. Not only that, but he owns a whole heap of veterinary practices.
Matt: When you think about it, if you’re a rural-based business, you’re at a big advantage because other rural-based businesses don’t even have to be in your country. The town will likely choose to do business with you because, similar to Kieron’s experience, they prefer working with local agencies rather than big city firms. They connect with your shared experiences, such as having three kids and a dog.
They’re now charging up to $5,000 for website builds in rural areas
Matt: What is the typical price range for the websites you’re building now?
Kieron: We’ve just sent our largest invoice yet, amounting to almost $5,000 for a videographer. Typically, our basic package costs around $3,000.
A few months ago, I might have been hesitant to answer that question, but now I feel more confident. We initially told our friend that we were only charging $1,500, which was essentially a half-price offer.
However, looking back, even with friends and family, I believe that would be the standard rate considering the time and expertise we invest in the work. We are not cutting corners and are dedicating significant time to detailed keyword research, often working as late as 8:00 PM.
How these parents fit the Digital Agency into their busy schedule
Matt: So, how the heck are you guys fitting all this into your schedule? We have Norm and then Kieron, the Super Mum! Also, how are you handling the different roles?
Norm: Well, one of the biggest lessons we learned from Champions is setting our 90-day goals. That’s been huge for us. So, I’ll sit down and ask what we can get done in the next three months and write those things down.
Also, there’s a book I read a long time ago called Getting Things Done. From reading that, every Sunday night, we now have a weekly review. We sit down to review our personal schedules, work commitments, and progress on the website build. We discuss what happened in the previous week, what needs to be achieved in the upcoming week, and how we are tracking with our long-term goals.
We typically assess the next crucial step in the project and then schedule it into our week. We allocate specific time slots, like an hour or two in a particular evening, to work on it. When work gets busy, we may have to postpone and do the minimum, but during quieter times, such as holidays, we push harder and work faster.
The business allows them to work around the kids
Matt: So you’re finding it’s flexible time-wise when running the agency. And you can move it to the weekends and things like that.
Norm: Yes, let’s imagine we’re not quite busy enough yet, but we’re approaching that point where we might become overwhelmed soon.
Matt: And, Kieron, most of the work that you are doing is after eight o’clock at night, once you’ve put the kids to bed?
Kieron: That’s right.
Matt: You guys are so young.
Kieron: We don’t feel young, Matt!
Matt: Well, you look young.
But as Arnie says, “Just sleep less.” I can’t do that any more because I’m in my fifties. But you guys are working after eight until what time?
Kieron: Norm can push through until 11 pm. I don’t usually go that late, but it depends on what’s needed at the time. As you said, “If you want something done, you give it to a busy person.”
There are times when we’ll get up before the kids if that’s what has to happen. There are times when we get them to bed, and our 4-year-old had a little habit for a while, such as getting up and down a few times before eight o’clock.
We’re like, “No mate, you’ve got to be in bed because we’ve got things we need to do”. It’s a pretty strict bedtime routine to ensure they’re in and asleep. They’re usually down by about seven. So, it gives us enough time to have a bit of a chat and get started.
The Benefits of Outsourcing for Their Online Business
…see how hiring some extra people has helped save them time while they’re still learning & growing the business…
Kieron: We’ve also become much better at outsourcing.
If you had spoken to me a few months ago, I would’ve said, “That’s ok. I can do all of that myself.” But I ended up becoming the bottleneck.
The types of people Kieron & Norm have hired to help their business
Matt: Who have you hired to help you in your business?
1./ Someone to help with the website builds
Norm: We’ve got a techie who’s worked on two website builds for us. They’re not fully completed, but as our coach, Calem, said, “If they get you 70% of the way there, then that’s only 30% of the job you’ve got to do.”
So, we’ve started with that advice, and are now getting our SOPs (standard operating procedures) together so that we can start moving forward more. But in the long run, it’s all saving us time.
Kieron: Right now, we’re building on our skills to finesse all that we do so far. We’re working on getting a lot of the basic builds done and then finesse that we do all so far. We also do all the copy, keyword research, and that sort of stuff.
2./ Someone to assist with SEO tasks
Kieron: We recently outsourced an SEO audit, and we’re absolutely astounded by it. We’d already done a preliminary one ourselves, and just out of curiosity, we thought we’d give it to these guys we’d found as we had nothing to lose.
This is for our potential vet client, and we wanted to make sure that we covered every base. We found that report really interesting.
Matt: Did you hire them on Upwork? There are so many opportunities for different types of hires there.
Norm: Yeah, absolutely.
3./ A techie to help fix online issues
Matt: Did you also get your techie from Upwork?
Norm: No, it was from the Champions community. Someone posted that they had a techie available for hire.
Kieron: We outsourced the fixing of our site map because we were having trouble getting it to show up properly on Google. I tried to fix the issue myself a few times, but it wasn’t working.
I realised we were spending too much time on it. The person we hired fixed it within two hours, whereas I had already spent more than that and still couldn’t solve the problem.
We got to the point where we know what we know but also know when someone else knows more than us.
4./ A content writer
Kieron: We’ve outsourced a bit of writing to varied success. We’ve had a few rewrites when it was done through AI. So, we haven’t probably hit the mark on the writing side of things yet.
Matt: But it sounds like you’re gaining a lot more confidence in that area. It’s only been a couple of months, but look at where you are now.
Juggling a full-time role, being a busy mum, and running an online business
Matt: You guys are the perfect example of the journey of how things can pan out, especially for those working full-time.
Also, Kieron, I just realised that you’ve freed up some time by changing your work hours. Is that correct?
Kieron: I work four days a week, but on my day off, I have my children with me. So, apart from a two-hour nap in the middle of the day, I don’t really have free time.
There’s a window of about two hours in the evening when the baby goes to bed, and the toddler watches a bit of a movie, during which I can get a few things done. However, I probably accomplish more at work during my lunch breaks. I can be more efficient there, especially when it comes to sending emails.
I think most Mums will understand this, especially those who have returned to work. Everything has to run on a schedule, and it’s our job to keep everyone on track.
I don’t mean to say that our lives are completely scheduled, but we know how to make the most of our time.
Norm and Kieron set goals & schedule regular time to review if they’re on track
Kieron: We set aside family time, usually on Sunday nights, and try to have a date with just the two of us every few weeks. It could be as simple as having takeout at home and chatting without discussing work or the kids.
When we plan family time, we decide on activities to do together. We also include our goals, such as going to the gym, etc., in our 90-day plans. And we review every Sunday night to see if we are doing these things.
The goal setting has been very effective for us.
Norm: Yes, it’s been phenomenal.
Kieron: We also keep coming back to our big goals (BHAG—Big, Hairy, Audacious Goals). In other words, overall, this is where we’re going, and this is why we’re doing it.
Dividing tasks and responsibilities in their online business
Matt: It’s awesome to see you working hard on this together as a young couple.
You’ve never worked together before, and you’ve never considered it before. And I know Pete and Renee get asked about this a lot as well.
So, how are you dividing the tasks? Are there defined roles for each of you, or do you share responsibilities? Do you work on things together?
Norm: To be fair, it has been a pretty organic process.
It was quite ad hoc at the beginning, as we were still learning the necessary skills. Initially, we didn’t have the foresight to anticipate what lay ahead. However, now we have a better idea of the upcoming tasks in the process.
They identified what roles suited each of their personalities…
Norm: I am dyslexic, so working on the textual content of the sites is not my strong suit; that’s more of Kieron’s strength. She handles most of the copywriting, while I prefer working on the design aspect. We’ve found a good balance in our skill sets.
I tend to take my time, sometimes spending a whole day on something. Whereas Kieron can quickly finish a task in two hours. It can be a little bit more rough around the edges at times, but she gets it done.
Kieron: Yes, I can get 80% of the task done and then just smash the rest of it out because I’m hyper-focused. I’m not talking to anyone until the job’s done.
That’s my personality – just get it done. Whereas Norm is more attention to detail. He’s all about making sure the process is smooth.
So, we might have some initial teething issues and frustrations when starting. For example, “Am I on that? Am I included in this?” We had to keep going back and forth, “Did you send that email? Am I sending that?”
Norm: We’re still working through it.
Matt: It’s funny you say that, Kieron. Liz and I also work closely together, and I often ask if Liz answered an email, and she says, “No, I thought you did.”
…and schedule their work time around their kids
Matt: I want to emphasise the importance of working together with your partner. It’s a smart idea to have your Sunday night meetings together, especially if you’re under time pressure.
Liz and I have our meetings on Monday mornings. We sit down together while we take the kids to school and go through our tasks for the week.
I know that you have three kids, so it might work best for you to have your meetings on Sunday nights. Waiting until after the kids go to bed is a smart move because then you can get focused.
You’ve now gone through the learning period and have developed the skills you need to run your business. If we’d had this conversation two months ago, things would have been different. But now things are falling into place, and you both know what your roles are.
So, a big congratulations. You two are the perfect example of what can be achieved when you work together as high achievers. You’ve done a great job, and it’s incredible to think about what you’ve accomplished.
Being a working mum of three kids in a rural area and working the hours that you do, doing all this at night and during lunch hours, is a huge achievement. And you’re already making really good money on the side!
The 2 things that have helped Norm & Kieron in their online journey
1./ Having access to a supporting community
Kieron: Well, we are so grateful to Matt and Liz Raa, who have built this brilliant educational business. Not only that, but we rely on your coaches so much throughout the journey. It’s great having that support structure to help us.
There is also the community network, your private Facebook page, and we’re always on there. We’re constantly tagging each other in posts to make sure we go through them in the evenings.
2./ Supporting each other in the process
Kieron: There’s something else. Norm kept coming back to the idea of that side income. We need to build our own lives where we’re not reliant on an employer.
So, we got things happening for ourselves. When Norm was looking through the Digital Investors Program, he said to me, “I think we’re onto something here. All the structure we need is here.” And it all started from there.
Today, we have some non-negotiables with each other. We never miss the weekly webinars or allow ourselves to fall behind in the lessons.
3./ Building robust systems
Kieron: Also, having those systems in place really helps us stay focused.
Without our systems, we might have been tempted to explore different investment opportunities, all with the goal of creating a better life for our family.
Once we got started, we found that these systems provided the structure, support, and community that we needed. So, we’re really grateful to you all for creating all of that. Thank you very much.
Matt: Well, thank you so much, Norm and Kieron. I think you’ve inspired so many people and helped them out with what they need to learn. It’s absolutely fantastic. So, thank you both for sharing your story today.
